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"My Room" - akustičen dizajn kontrolne sobe


23 odgovorov v tej temi

#1 NLP

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Objavljeno 16 december 2010 - 10:03

Enkrat sem obljubljal da bom predstavil en nov akustičen dizajn, ko pride čas (Klik), no in prišel je:)
Strokovno delo je bilo predstavljeno ne dolgo nazaj na letošnji novembrski 129-ti AES konferenci v San Franciscu: http://www.aes.org/e....cfm?elib=15717.

Ker sva z avtorjem tega dizajna Bogič Petrovićem dobra osebna kolega, ga tudi zelo spoštujem, sem ga v konstruktiven! pogovor tudi uspel pregovorit.
Še bolje kot da sam predstavljam, na vprašanja, ki se vam morebiti porodijo, vam bo odgovoril osebno Bogič Petrović.
Odgovarjal vam bo v angleščini, pomagal bom tudi jaz, da ga ne bo google translator preveč zavajal:).

Bogič, dobrodošel z moje strani na planetaudio forum!!!

Da na hitro preletim, znani akustični dizajni so (naveden avtor in dizajn):
Hidley/ Newell/ Non-Environment oz. N-E, Chips Davis/ Live End Dead End oz. LEDE, Jensen/ Directional dual acoustics/ graded acoustics, Ishii&Mizutoni/ Hybrid room, Walker/ BBC/ Controled Image Design oz. CID, Massenburg/ Reflection Rich Zone oz. RRZ, DAntonio/ Reflection Free Zone oz. RFZ, Parry/ Early Sound Scattering dizajn oz. ESS, Moulton/ Moulton Room, Massenburg/ DAntonio/ Ambient Anechoic oz. Ambechoic Surround Sound Environment, iRoom oz. Immersive Surround Environment in malo predelani Hidley - Jouanjean/ Front To Back oz. FTB.

Tale dizajn je poimenovan bolj zveneče in ne tako "komplicirano" kot ostali - "My Room".

Kolikor je menda znano, neki nov akustični dizajn ni vsakodnevna zadeva in nekega prostora za neke hude "kar neke"! inovacije nekako ni oz. ga je bolj malo in je treba imeti zelo strokovno "domišljijo".
Nekateri našteti dizajni se niso obnesli... nekateri tudi ne ker niso bili dovolj marketinško podprti in ob nepravem času... nekateri so preveč cenjeni glede na to kar ponujajo...

Ponuja tudi odlično surround podporo oz. okolje, kjer drugi dizajni nekako dobro šepajo (no razen Massenburgovega Ambient Anechoic dizajna).

Kar nekaj svojega časa sem posvetil tej temi (cca. 15let) in sem kar dodobra seznanjen z različnimi akustičnimi principi, psihoakustiko, prednostmi, pomanjkljivostmi drugih dizajnov in iz moje strani moram reč, da je ta še najbolj zanimiv.

Kdor je član AES-a in ima vključeno možnost koriščenja digitalne knjižnice si lahko sname direktno dokument iz zgornje povezave.
Kdor pa ni, pa ima možnost sneti tudi od tukaj: http://myroom-acoust...i...5&Itemid=72
Povezava na njihovo spletno stran: http://myroom-acoustics.com/index.php

Pripete sličice

  • big_pic13.jpg

Nenad Patkovic

#2 Bogic Petrovic

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Objavljeno 16 december 2010 - 11:29

Greetings everybody!

Thanks Nenad, for the warm welcome.

First of all (even if Nenad told you almost everything danceee.gif ), allow me to introduce ourselves briefly, we (Zorica and Bogic) are electrical engineers from Belgrade, Serbia, whose field of employment involves the acoustic design of a number of studios and recording rooms.

After some time in the field, and building upon our experiences, we developed a new approach towards acoustically treating rooms/spaces for surround and stereo monitoring.

We have written a paper describing this new approach regarding the acoustic treatment of small rooms for surround monitoring, which is also suitable for stereo monitoring, and for larger rooms/areas too.

The accompanying text to our work was published at the 129th AES Convention in San Francisco (the most recent one), under the name: Acoustical Design of Control Room for Stereo and Multichannel Production and Reproduction—A Novel Approach—Bogic Petrovic, Zorica Davidovic, BoZo Electronics, MyRoom Acoustics - Beograd, Serbia.

We would be pleased to engage in discussion about our first paper, published at the AES Convention, with all of you visitors of the Planetaudio forum.
For those that aren't members of AES Library, we prepare non much detailed white paper located on our site in publications: http://www.myroom-ac...?...5&Itemid=72

Besides the authors (Bogic and Zorica), the discussion will also be able to involve other team members whose input contributed during the development process (through listening and providing subjective impressions during listening / mixing tests)

Here are some examples of design:

slika1.jpg slika2.jpg slika3.jpg


We would like to thank the Nenad and other moderators/administrators of Planetaudio Forum, for their kindness and allowing discussion about our work to occur on the Planetaudio "Akustika" forum.

Thanking you all in advance for the constructive and productive discussion. smile.gif

Respectfully yours,

Bogic Petrovic - Boggy

p.s. Use slovenian language if you like, for discussion, Google Translation Slovenian->English works pretty well. jumping0046.gif

Prispevek uredil/a: Bogic Petrovic, 17 december 2010 - 03:48 .


#3 mateollo

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Objavljeno 20 december 2010 - 08:51

LEPO pozdravljen na forumu Mr. Boggy.
Lepo da se tud tle mnozite strokovnjaki za akustiko. Z Nenadom ravnokar delava na mojem mix-roomu na stil My room design seveda z določenimi spremembami, ker sem omenejen z budgetom kot večina ljudi:))

keep up the good work

lp Matej


#4 Vale

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Objavljeno 20 december 2010 - 11:55

Že videl zadevo... respect! wink.gif

#5 NLP

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Objavljeno 20 december 2010 - 08:21

...hmmm uraden white paper na my-room acoustics spletni strani in delo uradno prijavljeno na AES-u... je minilo komaj nekaj tednov...
Nenad Patkovic

#6 Vale

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Objavljeno 21 december 2010 - 01:49

no jaz sem te slike videl že kr lep čas nazaj ko si mi jih kazal... to sem mislil smile.gif

#7 NLP

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Objavljeno 21 december 2010 - 01:57

Ja to pa ja, res je, jaz sem mislil glede opisa principa.
Nenad Patkovic

#8 Zorica Davidovic

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Objavljeno 21 december 2010 - 03:15

Hello everybody!

Thank you very much for your kind words. smile.gif

If you happen to find yourself passing through the Belgrade / Novi Sad areas, and wish to hear the MyRoom Design principles in practice, try to let us know around a week in advance so that we can try to organise a listening session for you.

To get in contact with us, you can send mail to info@myroom-acoustics.com, or call us on +381 62 650 970.

Even if you unexpectedly find yourself in Belgrade, give us a call, and perhaps a listening session can be arranged (whenever we find some free time wink.gif).

Zorica

Prispevek uredil/a: Zorica Davidovic, 21 december 2010 - 03:40 .


#9 Zorica Davidovic

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Objavljeno 19 januar 2011 - 10:32

Greetings everybody!

Our Internet Service Provider has a serious problem for more than 24h, so our http://www.myroom-acoustics.com site is unavailable.

Our publications are currently hosted on our different server: http://www.bozoel.co...m...8&Itemid=71

We apologize to all our visitors.

#10 Bogic Petrovic

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Objavljeno 02 marec 2011 - 12:35

Hi all smile.gif

It's time for a small update

Beside AES Convention paper, there are finally published paper from local Serbian Conference, free for download (english): Petrovic Bogic, Davidovic Zorica: A new acoustical design of control room for multichannel production and reproduction, 18th Telecommunications Forum TELFOR 2010, Belgrade, Serbia.

Our (already known) white paper about MyRoom Design can be found here or here.

We get a couple of questions via email, and some responses can be good for a topic, and possibly interesting for other people.


About type of wideband absorption behind air transparent diffusers...

We wouldn’t describe absorption realization in details, because we expect that reader (skilled acoustician) already has his own experience with “best” method. We always used Tom Hidley/Philip Newell principle (waveguides formed with hanged panels), because we believe this method is best fit to air transparent diffuser. But we don’t like to discourage others, with different experience, to use layers of mid density rockwoll or any other known method.


About depth of wideband absorption behind transparent diffusers...

Depth vary from place to place… and to be sure,... we fill with absorption panels any cavity we found in room, with this, we formed one big “bass trap” around listener (half space above floor) . It’s substantial that we don’t have acoustically different “ends” of room… all surfaces except floor are highly absorptive. And yes, before you mount air transparent diffusers, room is completely “dead” and this was deliberately. We noted in our white paper, about volume of room we use for “bass trapping” or wideband absorption, and if you can’t figure out which depth is used… here is more precise information:
- depth vary from 30-80cm (12-32") in smaller room (Pressed Lizard studio), and from 10cm to 150cm (4-60") in bigger room (RES Media studios).
Be aware that in “sub-compact” rooms, with room volumes below 100m3, you can’t exceed some "maximum needed" absorption for low frequencies, because room modes energy are much denser in audible low frequencies region AND, in same time, you have much smaller space (volume) for absorption… because this, low end absorption won’t be “ideal” anyway, whatever absorption method you use and whichever volume you spent for it!
Good thing is that most loudspeakers are omnidirectional below 200-300Hz and deepest bass traps works in some way in overall treatment even if you have it only behind and possibly around (soffit mounted) speakers.


About windows, doors, racks, ventilation ducts…

In our white paper we didn’t describe detailed plan of any particular studio, instead of this we described general design principles. This means that you can have windows to recording rooms, day light windows, doors for entrance, ventilation ducts, racks… etc. It’s only important to take care about symmetry, especially front side. Highly diffused rooms are very sensitive to non symmetrical obstacles. Or better, people are very sensitive to non-symmetrical arranged obstacles in highly diffused rooms.
For example, if you have window to your front-left side, but not have one to your front right side, symmetrical to left, that may be a problem. Try to make “blind” window to your right side with same dimensions at your left side (not needed to be real window, may be some picture or illustration behind glass). This helps uniform distribution of reflections to your ears, and not causes frequency dependent position distortion in your stereo image.


Rack, doors:


Air transparent Fractal Diffuser:



About measurements...

All frequency response measurements are smoothed to 1/3 octave because International/European recommendations for control rooms ask this:

1. "Multichannel surround sound systems and operations", AES Technical Council, Document AESTD1001.1.01-10, New York.
2. “Methods for the subjective assessment of small impairments in audio systems including multichannel sound systems”, ITU-R Recommendation BS.1116 (rev. 1), ITU, Geneva, 1997.
3. W. Hoeg, L. Christensen, R. Walker, “Subjective assessment of audio quality– the means and methods within the EBU”, EBU Technical Review Winter 1997, pp. 40-43.
4. "Listening conditions for the assessment of sound programme material: monophonic and two–channel stereophonic", EBU Tech. 3276 – 2nd edition May 1998, European Broadcasting Union, Geneva, Switzerland
...

It's good to be aware that RT60 recommendation is even easier to reach, than frequency response in AESTD1001.1.01-10, because there may be, in RT60 recommended boundaries, “jumps” allowed below 125Hz. Instead of this, in frequency response boundaries we need “flat” response down to 40Hz. Peaks in measured RT60 are highly correlated with room modes, and because this, they are highly correlated with non-linearities in frequency response. This means that you need much better RT60 response if you like to have recommended frequency response. In older recommendations (ITU/EBU) there are wider boundaries at low frequencies, for frequency response, that was easier to reach, but nevermind...

To be honest, we didn’t really expect to build acoustics treatment in such small rooms and to get AES/ITU/EBU recommendations fully satisfied, especially for low frequencies below 125Hz. We are defined MyRoom method with consideration to listeners, mixing engineers, not to measurement microphones only, using all our knowledge and experience of acoustics and psychoacoustics, from books, papers and in the field. Nevertheless, we get a decent measurement results in regards to recommendations.

Basic idea was to get best low end absorption as possible in “sub-compact” room, in all directions, spending largest possible volume of room for this, but still remain practical, and to bring back liveness in room later, with air transparent diffusers. That is our approach to get small rooms treated as best as can be useful for music production.

Measurements came later, when we finished these rooms, and we publish it in our papers.

It’s true that room measurements results are not biggest quality of MyRoom treatment, because there are many, mostly psychoacoustic qualities that we can’t measure directly or objectively. Subjective impressions and mixing engineer experiences are one of our ways we used to define MyRoom method. And is also true that there are many different ways to reach recommended values for RT60 and frequency response, but all this methods don't sounds similar.


Origins...

Fundamental acoustical behavior we used for MyRoom Design is ordinary living room, where we live most of our time from birth. That ordinary room is mostly homogenous/chaotic reflective and absorptive in all directions. We believe that this acoustical behavior is a better way to get good and natural environment for mixing engineer, especially for mix translation and time needed for adaptation.

This means, for control room acoustics, an “ordinary” room with highly controlled low frequencies and decent and homogenous liveness for high frequencies, from all directions.

After all, added diffusion is a logical step to bring more details to listeners ears, and make control room for professional, dedicated purposes.

For all diffuse surfaces, except floor, inspiration came from Massenburg Blackbird Room.

For low end treatment inspiration came from Tom Hidley/Philip Newell Non-Environment design.

Construction that link all this and make it possible was "Air Transparent Diffuser" (image below)

Cross section of air transparent diffuser with applied wideband absorber (behind):



About phase grating and amplitude grating diffusers used in MyRoom principle...

Our air transparent diffusers are combined phase grating and amplitude grating construction.

Amplitude grating effect exists because space between (different depth) slats forms Helmholtz absorbers with different (random) working frequencies, and slats are already reflective. Because different working frequencies of slat absorber, there are amplitude grating effect (position dependent) for single frequency, in the working range.

Reflection from slat fronts (different depths/position) forming phase grating effect.

But, if someone don’t have a budget to build that type of diffusers, there is a way to build ordinary amplitude grating diffuser instead, binary MLS type, for example, used to bring back liveness in room after heavy and thick wideband absorption and maintain needed RT60. Even if amplitude+phase grating construction is better for diffusion, from our experience, bringing back liveness in a room is important, and when you do this with only binary diffusers (1D or 2D) you still may have nice and pleasing place for work, even without strong diffusion sound field.

To be continued...


Best regards

Bogic

Prispevek uredil/a: Bogic Petrovic, 02 marec 2011 - 02:07 .


#11 Bogic Petrovic

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Objavljeno 03 marec 2011 - 02:31

QUOTE (Bogic Petrovic @ 2. Mar 2011 12:35:34) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
................
Beside AES Convention paper, there are finally published paper from local Serbian Conference, free for download (english): Petrovic Bogic, Davidovic Zorica: A new acoustical design of control room for multichannel production and reproduction, 18th Telecommunications Forum TELFOR 2010, Belgrade, Serbia.
..................


Last time i check, TELFOR web site give an "internal server error..." while someone try to download our paper, and because this I "mirrored" it on our site too, here it is then:

TELFOR Conference paper (english): Petrovic Bogic, Davidovic Zorica: A new acoustical design of control room for multichannel production and reproduction, 18th Telecommunications Forum TELFOR 2010, Belgrade, Serbia. [mirrored]

Sorry for inconvenience.

Best regards,

Bogic Petrovic

Prispevek uredil/a: Bogic Petrovic, 03 marec 2011 - 02:51 .


#12 Bogic Petrovic

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Objavljeno 17 maj 2011 - 01:15

Hello everybody,
Last month we successfully got even better frequency response in small Pressed Lizard room (described in white paper), using equalizing filters (IIR) in loudspeaker crossover
Here are the new measurement results, which obviously tell just one part of the story, and of course the most important element are the mix/master results you get from the room itself, and the way it leads your perception in a certain direction. But, having said that, I'm posting the measurement graphs, just so you can see the frequency response linearity (now it's easily in +/-3dB limits), and of course if you're more interested in design elements and/or even concrete work examples, I'm looking forward to sharing those details with you.

First picture is left channel only, blue is new response, red is old response
Second picture is right channel only, blue is new response, red is old response
Third picture is left and right channel, new responses, blue is left, red is right
NOTES:
1. All published frequency response graphs are smoothed to 1/3 octave (as is recommended in AES/EBU/ITU documments listed above)
2. All measurements are made at mix position.
3. All measurements are made without desks, and any other studio furniture... floor is empty.
4. Loudspeakers are our SM-3, a three way active system. (now customized)
5. Loudspeakers are soffit mounted into bass trap with air transparent diffusers (please, see papers listed in first post)

Best regards,

Pripete sličice

  • left.png
  • right.png
  • lr.png

Prispevek uredil/a: Bogic Petrovic, 17 maj 2011 - 06:37 .


#13 jetam

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Objavljeno 17 maj 2011 - 04:27

To izgleda fantastično.
Bi bilo mogoče videti tudi kakšne neglajene grafe ali pa kakšne, kjer je v prostoru tudi oprema (miza...)?

Hvala

#14 NLP

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Objavljeno 17 maj 2011 - 10:17

Moje mnenje:
to izgleda fantastično tudi če so devijacije brez smoothinga in EQ-ja v takšnem specifičnem (težavnem) prostoru mnogo večje.
Nenad Patkovic

#15 jetam

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Objavljeno 17 maj 2011 - 10:28

QUOTE (NLP @ 17. May 2011 23:17:41) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Moje mnenje:
to izgleda fantastično tudi če so devijacije brez smoothinga in EQ-ja v takšnem specifičnem (težavnem) prostoru mnogo večje.

Definitivno.

#16 Bogic Petrovic

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Objavljeno 17 maj 2011 - 10:48

QUOTE (jetam @ 17. May 2011 17:27:59) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
To izgleda fantastično.

Hvala/Thanks smile.gif
QUOTE (jetam @ 17. May 2011 17:27:59) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Bi bilo mogoče videti tudi kakšne neglajene grafe ali pa kakšne, kjer je v prostoru tudi oprema (miza...)?
....

We don't have the measurements with furniture and mixing/working desk, because measuring
with desk/furniture reflections and comb filtering in control room is somewhat meaningless. (especially if room is already small!)
It's up to mixing engineer and/or producer to get used to these artifacts in one particular room.

We are born in reverberant space, we live most of our life in reverberant space, and we really
can adapt to some degree using our brain.
With right acoustical treatment this degree tends to be smallest possible.

I can publish unsmoothed graphs, but there are three standards/recommendations (AES, EBU, ITU)
which links I listed above, that agree in this one thing - smoothing must be 1/3oct if we
like to check that we satisfy criterion of linearity between +3dB and -3dB, otherwise criterion
isn't defined, or better, criterion is unknown (we don't have it anymore)
For curiosity sake I can publish it later, if you (really) wish.

best regards

Bogic Petrovic

Prispevek uredil/a: Bogic Petrovic, 17 maj 2011 - 11:20 .


#17 jetam

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Objavljeno 18 maj 2011 - 08:33

Hvala za odgovor.

Če ni problem, bi vseeno rad videl grafe, če je preveč dela, pa ni treba.

Lep pozdrav
Matej

#18 ssimonss

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Objavljeno 19 maj 2011 - 12:06

A se da dobiti kakšne slike od Pressed Lizard studia, da vidimo kako zgleda...?



#19 Bogic Petrovic

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Objavljeno 20 maj 2011 - 12:59

QUOTE (ssimonss @ 19. May 2011 01:06:15) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
A se da dobiti kakšne slike od Pressed Lizard studia, da vidimo kako zgleda...?

I'm sorry, Pressed Lizard isn't yet finished aesthetically, though it's fully functional.
I have one picture, posted to other forum, that I can give you for now.

Dimensions and other data you can find in white paper and Telfor Conference text, already linked above.

At picture you can see:
1. Wooden frame (thing with "magic" smile.gif number "20 1338.5" is standard 5x8cm beam)
2. Front air transparent diffusers (MDF, black painted/lacquered)
3. Our SM-3, soffit mounted (big loudspeaker system, customized)
4. Part of LCD (HD) TV for VGA "monitor", between loudspeakers in same front plane (no acoustic diffractions!)
5. (Left) Side air transparent diffusers (OSB is used)

We (really) plan to finish Pressed Lizard in near future, and we will post pictures here immediately after, I promise! smile.gif

Also, we really welcome any visitor which like to hear Pressed Lizard in Belgrade, in this aesthetically unfinished phase! (as I noted above) smile.gif

Best regards,

Bogic Petrovic

Pripete sličice

  • DSCF2437_800.jpg

Prispevek uredil/a: Bogic Petrovic, 20 maj 2011 - 01:15 .


#20 Bogic Petrovic

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Objavljeno 20 maj 2011 - 01:31

QUOTE (jetam @ 18. May 2011 21:33:58) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hvala za odgovor.

Če ni problem, bi vseeno rad videl grafe, če je preveč dela, pa ni treba.

Lep pozdrav
Matej


No problem, here it is, left channel frequency response, unsmoothed and 1/3 octave smoothed, in same graph.

Best regards

Bogic Petrovic

Pripete sličice

  • left_unsmoothed.png

Prispevek uredil/a: Bogic Petrovic, 20 maj 2011 - 01:34 .


#21 jetam

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Objavljeno 20 maj 2011 - 01:42

Najlepša hvala

#22 Bogic Petrovic

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Objavljeno 31 maj 2011 - 10:02

Hello again,

If you like to hear how mixes may sound from Pressed Lizard, I have short audio clip recently mixed to share with you:

http://myroom-acoust...a_selection.wav [~23MB]

Enjoy! smile.gif

Best regards

Prispevek uredil/a: Bogic Petrovic, 31 maj 2011 - 10:42 .


#23 Bogic Petrovic

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Objavljeno 02 julij 2011 - 11:27

Hello everyone,

I finally found a very first recording from rec. room in RES Media Studio... female vocal and guitar.

It's only a sketch, some moment of inspiration...

Sorry, only mp3 sad.gif

http://www.bozoel.co...demo_insert.mp3

Enjoy!

Prispevek uredil/a: Bogic Petrovic, 02 julij 2011 - 11:28 .


#24 NLP

NLP

    arhitekt spektralnih platform prostora in časa

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Objavljeno 12 februar 2012 - 04:38

Boggy,

this is my first 2 ala MyRoom design control rooms.
They are not finished yet but have serious potential (more diffusers etc.).

Upcoming new control rooms (cca. 7) - I will update as soon as possible.

Clients are extremely satisfied, they hear so much details than in conventional designs (LEDE, smaller/medium RFZ rooms).
Rooms have aproximately only 32 and 45m3 and have serious room ratios problems.
No tunable acoustical elements (helmholtz, membrane), just combination of porous mineral wool of diffrent densities&dephts (sandwich).

Pripete sličice

  • Studio_B_Flat3.jpg
  • Studio_B_Flat2.jpg
  • Studio_B_Flat1.jpg
  • Studio_B_Flat_meritve_frekv_lin.png
  • Studio_B_Flat_sonogram.jpg
  • Studio_SS1.jpg
  • Studio_SS2.jpg
  • Studio_Simon_S_frekv_lin.jpg
  • Studio_SS_sonogram.jpg

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